So were any of the 66 villians destined to be awful?

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dell
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So were any of the 66 villians destined to be awful?

Post by dell » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:57 am

We have had plenty of discussions about how certain actors or certain episodes were not very good. However, let's take a different approach in this thread. Were there any villians whose concept was just not up to snuff? In other words, no matter how good the actor and no matter how good the script, which villians would have been ho-hum?

I have one in mind, but I'll keep it to myself for now. If someone mentions that particular villian I will add my comments.
dell

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epaddon
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Re: So were any of the 66 villians destined to be awful?

Post by epaddon » Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:35 pm

Olga, Queen of the Cossacks was a bad idea from the get-go. I can't think of any actress who would have been "better" in such a part because the concept was dumb.

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hobbybuilder01
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Re: So were any of the 66 villians destined to be awful?

Post by hobbybuilder01 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:55 pm

whew so many bad idea villians, mostly second season clock king and the puzzler come to mind..as do Archer and the minstrel as badly cast. Another would be Chandel most are second season with Minerva and Nora Clavicle in the third.

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Re: So were any of the 66 villians destined to be awful?

Post by Riddlersgurl » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:15 pm

It seemed to me that most of the second and just about the entire third season had miscast villains, except for the main four.

Minerva could have been interesting, if they had gone with a better actress.

Chandel and Harry? They were both awful. The concept was okay on paper, but Liberace???? Great showman and piano player; not that good of an actor.

Maurice Evans? He was a good actor, but the part was just not the right one for him. At. All.

Archer, and Minstrel? OY! The Minstrel could have been written as more menacing, and been a true threat, but he was kind of laughable. As well as a little too old to be a believable villain.

Art Carney, if he had not been going through a major bout of depression at the time, could have been the same. Anyone that carries a long distance weapon is someone that is to be respected. All he had to do was shoot the tires of the Batmobile, and then gone off to do his thing.

Sometimes it seemed to me that the molls had more on the ball than the villains did in the second season.

Anna Gram is an excellent example of this. She was very affectionate with the Riddler, but ice cold and sneaky when it came to the Dynamic Duo; and not afraid to inflict physical damage, i.e. the kick to Robin's shin.

Now, normally I do not like John Astin's turn as the Riddler, but compared to most of the other villains in the second season, it was a lot easier to take.

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epaddon
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Re: So were any of the 66 villians destined to be awful?

Post by epaddon » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:46 pm

The question though isn't one of miscast villains, but bad concepts. Some concepts like Chandell and Minerva can't be separated from their performers because they are simply Liberace and Zsa Zsa playing themselves, so whether they're bad characters or not depends on your view of the performer's validity in a Bat universe.

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Re: So were any of the 66 villians destined to be awful?

Post by Bob » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:59 pm

Season 3

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Batfan 66
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Re: So were any of the 66 villians destined to be awful?

Post by Batfan 66 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:58 pm

I actually kind of liked the Clock King episodes, it was fun to see Batman and Robin grabbin' a Batburger at a drive-in, Dick beating Bruce in chess, more Wayne Manor scenes, it was like they were showing that Bruce and Dick don't spend every day all day fighting crime. :) But back to the topic,

I agree that Archer was portrayed very poorly, I wish they either would't have done that villain, or had someone else play him. I also didn't like Nora Clavicle or Lord Ffogg. There were some villains who just shouldn't have been there I guess. I wish they would have done a reoccurrence of False Face.
Has the whole world gone batty!?!?

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dell
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Re: So were any of the 66 villians destined to be awful?

Post by dell » Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:45 pm

I don't think that the Nora Clavicle character would have worked no matter who played her. The character really made no sense to me. I never understood her motivation for her crimes.

Hobbybuilder01 mentioned Chandel and I have to agree. Again, a criminal whose concept seemed pretty weak.

I thought the Minerva character idea was pretty good; I just didn't think Zsa-Zsa did a good job with her. Another actress might have done a lot more with her. She is kind of like Siren as she is able to brainwash people. Obviously, Zsa-Zsa was nowhere near as menacing as Joan was with Siren. Given the right actress and a more malevolent attitude the character might have worked.
dell

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Re: So were any of the 66 villians destined to be awful?

Post by AndyFish » Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:09 pm

I'm with Hobbybuilder-- a LOT of them.

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hobbybuilder01
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Re: So were any of the 66 villians destined to be awful?

Post by hobbybuilder01 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:35 pm

Another poor fit was Louie the lilac other than the main villans most really did not fit into batman's world really well.

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Re: So were any of the 66 villians destined to be awful?

Post by AndyFish » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:38 am

Almost all of the "real" villains worked for the show-- the ones made for it were hit and miss (at least for me)

King Tut- Hit
Egghead- Mix (1st appearance was pretty good)
Marsha - Miss
Archer (although he might be a Superman villian) Miss
Siren - Miss (Sorry Siren fans)
Bookworm- Hit
Minstrel- Miss
Ma Parker - Hit (Worked for me)
Louie The Lilac - Big Miss
Lola Lasagne - Miss
Lord Pfogg & Lady Peasoup - Hit (I liked them, what can I say?)
Shame- Hit (Hated him as a kid, now I think he's hilarious)
Puzzler (May be Superman villain) Miss
Chandell- Hit (Creepy and worked for me)
Sandman - Miss (Meh, boring!)
The Black Widow - On the fence.
Dr Cassandra - Miss (I like Ida Lupino in everything else)
Minerva - Nope
Nora Clavicle - Possibly the worst villain on the series and the worst episode.

elmrgraham
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Re: So were any of the 66 villians destined to be awful?

Post by elmrgraham » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:00 pm

I think The Catwoman and The Siren were definite HITS. Elmer J Graham Jr.,Keyport,N.J.

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hobbybuilder01
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Re: So were any of the 66 villians destined to be awful?

Post by hobbybuilder01 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:07 pm

on another note The Chandell episode was the highest rated one.. and my opinion the Siren was a good concept but came in the 3rd season when they just didnt have time budget or care on it

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High C
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Re: So were any of the 66 villians destined to be awful?

Post by High C » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:37 pm

First of all, dell, great idea for a thread.

I agree with epaddon. I thought Olga was a bad concept, no way to make it work in the Bat-universe. I'd say the same for Ma Parker. For me, the 'fish out of water' concepts didn't really work in the Bat-universe, although Shame wasn't bad.
dell wrote:I don't think that the Nora Clavicle character would have worked no matter who played her. The character really made no sense to me. I never understood her motivation for her crimes.
As written, no, there was no chance. But as I said in a thread on the old board last year, had the character been better-defined, and had she tried to drive a wedge between Batman/Robin and Batgirl, the character could have worked.

In that thread, I thought clavierankh summarized it well:

***
the payoff of this episode is all wrong. If it's about Nora Clavicle, champion of women's rights, her plot should be to drive all the men out of Gotham City leaving it a women only city.

What it comes out looking like is that she is putting the most incompetent women in charge so she can destroy it. ... it's like she puts women in charge because she believes they're basically inept.

She didn't believe in the women's movement she just used it for her own purposes
***
A good rewrite could have fixed this to make the ep at least palatable.
dell wrote:I thought the Minerva character idea was pretty good; I just didn't think Zsa-Zsa did a good job with her. Another actress might have done a lot more with her. She is kind of like Siren as she is able to brainwash people. Obviously, Zsa-Zsa was nowhere near as menacing as Joan was with Siren. Given the right actress and a more malevolent attitude the character might have worked.
My problem here relates to something you said, dell. They needed to make the Minerva gimmick actual brainwashing, instead of the silly 'deepest secret extractor.' Make that change, and it's a much more interesting ep and a more interesting character.
'I thought Siren was perfect for Joan.'--Stanley Ralph Ross, writer of 'The Wail of the Siren'

My hobbies include gazing at the Siren and doing her bidding, evil or otherwise.

'She had a devastating, hypnotic effect on all the men.'--A schoolmate describing Joan Collins at age 17

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High C
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Re: So were any of the 66 villians destined to be awful?

Post by High C » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:42 pm

Again, if we're talking about concepts, not portrayal, I'd add that Puzzler was too much of a mishmosh to work [Riddler knockoff, Shakespeare enthusiast AND specialist in aviation crimes???] and Ffogg and Peasoup were just plain boring, with no motivation for their crimes and zero menace. A waste of B & R's time. As someone once said on the old board, more pompous than villainous.
'I thought Siren was perfect for Joan.'--Stanley Ralph Ross, writer of 'The Wail of the Siren'

My hobbies include gazing at the Siren and doing her bidding, evil or otherwise.

'She had a devastating, hypnotic effect on all the men.'--A schoolmate describing Joan Collins at age 17

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