Enter Batgirl

[Dr. Shimel]

I state in my original post that "Yvonne Craig, Babs/Batgirl had nothing what so ever to do with the shows decline, I think we all agree there.

Much like Barbara Rush had nothing to do with how bad the perpetually-savaged Nora Clavicle episode was. She chewed the scenery, of course, (like most villains), but the script, and especially the dime-store budget, guaranteed this would rank among the all-time worst episodes.

[BATWINGED HORNET]

I also fixate on the impression that the quality on Batman suffered during season 2 because the production team became less focused, pulled thin while working on Green Hornet as well as Batman.

Greenway playing into Batmaina was the cause of slowly fading quality in season two, not the fact two TV productions were going on at the same time. For example, in the 60s and 70s, Quinn Martin productions had a few series on at the same time, but that did not necessarily mean one suffered because of being "pulled thin" by the others. Typically, when TV producers become too aware of their success--or any element from the series, the very thing that was the hit / breakthrough is turned up and overused to the point where it wears out its welcome quickly.

This happened with the Fonz character on Happy Days, or Data from Star Trek: the Next Generation. Instead of allowing a successful element to remain as a natural part of the series, it is inflated to the bursting point. For Batman, this would be too much utility belt, too much of the Batman-as-paternalistic-lecturer, Robin's "holyisms," etc.

This board, while nice enough in many ways, is not as "open" as it was then.

Interesting thought.

I've not seen any evidence that anyone "refused" to be more specific about Barbara's motives or background. I think that's just how things happened. TV storytelling in those days didn't use the same standards as would be applied today, as I'm sure you know. Audiences didn't expect the same things from TV writing, writers didn't approach storytelling the same way, episodes were written to be almost interchangeable rather than having each episode fall at some clearly defined point along some longer story arc. The standards of the era were different.

I disagree. The Fugitive's main characters--Kimble & Gerard--were fleshed out over the course of the series, so the audience understood the motives for the hunter and the hunted, so their conflicts took on a greater dimension than simply someone being chased. In episodes where the men faced each other, the interest and drama was elevated because we knew there was more to the characters than simply hero vs. villain.

The original Star Trek often explored the motivations of Kirk & Spock--their relationship to each other (and McCoy), why Kirk explored, his feelings of loneliness (never finding that one woman to be "the one"), Spock's struggle with the humanity he tried to suppress, etc. A large part of that series appeal was the creative investment in the main characters. With Batgirl, she just shows up being sassy, and we never have any sense of why she's there. In the Batman pilot, Bruce Wayne refers to the murder of his parents, so that justifies why he would use his resources to support his secret life. In The Green Hornet series, Mike Axford often referred to Britt (and/or his father's) crusading beliefs, and how that was the drive of the Daily Sentinel, so if one combines that crusading, anti-crime nature with Britt wanting to do what the police could not, you can buy his costumed identity.

Batgirl had no such development--not even a throwaway line.

Batgirl's rise and fall (and rise and fall and rise) within the Bat-continuities is an interesting thing in itself. Most interesting to me is the way that her fortunes varied with the amount of influence Denny O'Neil (whose writing I love) had over the Bat-continuity. Denny repeatedly went on the record proclaiming his dislike for the entire Batman Family. He was proud of writing the death of Batwoman, and he was closely involved with the projects which saw the demises of Batgirl and Robin. Batgirl was out of the continuity for a very long time, while Denny's preferred harsher, more solitary "back to basics" Batman was emphasized more.

I'm not sure about O'Neil's influence having that allegedly far reaching effect, as long after he was not scripting Bat-comics (if my memory of dates are correct), Batgirl held a more than occasional back-up feature in 1970s/80s issues of Detective Comics, and was featured prominently in Batman Family (not to mention her random guest appearances in other titles). As for Robin, the original Robin--Grayson--was not killed off but gained greater popularity in The New Teen Titans (beyond his 1960s Batmania period), eventually switching to the Nightwing identity.

[Dr. Shimel]

Dozier and many of the other big shots connected to the show likely started checking out of the series after the 1966 holiday season was over. That was their last chance to really exploit BatMania merchandising, and once that ended, it was all downhill for the show.

[clavierankh]

The Alfred's niece scenario might work. Having Batgirl a member of the family would make integrating her into the story easier. The problem would be, unless the writers were careful, Batgirl could end up just a junior partner and not a hero in her own right.

[BATWINGED HORNET]

The Alfred's niece scenario might work. Having Batgirl a member of the family would make integrating her into the story easier.

The idea of Batgirl being Alfred's niece was too much of a coincidence, and plotting of convenience. Since there are other examples of characters and their motives explored (no matter how brief) in the Dozier series, the lack of development for Batgirl could point to the character simply being a gimmick, with no need for development, since the producers and/or writers felt no one would care to know much more than "look--its another Bat-character."

[epaddon]

It gets back to the point I made before that giving her a "tertiary motivation" only would have required something as simple as one line of dialogue which wouldn't have been asking too much of the writers back then.

[Gernot]

Epaddon, speaking of Batman's motive for being Batman being told in the pilot, didn't they mention at least once during the show's run that Dick Grayson's parents were also murdered? I think it was in a one-liner (not a joke). Somebody made mention of both Bruce's and Dick's parents both being killed by criminals early on in the show.

Or am I misremembering the whole t'ing?

Thanks!

[Jaws63]

Epaddon, speaking of Batman's motive for being Batman being told in the pilot, didn't they mention at least once during the show's run that Dick Grayson's parents were also murdered? I think it was in a one-liner (not a joke). Somebody made mention of both Bruce's and Dick's parents both being killed by criminals early on in the show.

Or am I misremembering the whole t'ing?

Thanks!

I think I can answer your question, there was never any mention of Dick's parents at any point in the shows run. The only blood relation he had with anyone on the show was his aunt Harriett.

That brings me to another point. It was mentioned in "The bat's Kow tow" in the Chad and Jeremy Concert at the tail end of the show that the commissioner's grand children asked him to see this concert. If the commissioner had grandchildren, how is it that Barbera is an only child and has no kids?

[Gleeps, it's Batman]

Epaddon, speaking of Batman's motive for being Batman being told in the pilot, didn't they mention at least once during the show's run that Dick Grayson's parents were also murdered? I think it was in a one-liner (not a joke). Somebody made mention of both Bruce's and Dick's parents both being killed by criminals early on in the show.

Or am I misremembering the whole t'ing?

Thanks!

I think I can answer your question, there was never any mention of Dick's parents at any point in the shows run. The only blood relation he had with anyone on the show was his aunt Harriett.

That brings me to another point. It was mentioned in "The bat's Kow tow" in the Chad and Jeremy Concert at the tail end of the show that the commissioner's grand children asked him to see this concert. If the commissioner had grandchildren, how is it that Barbera is an only child and has no kids?

My first introduction to knowing that Dick Grayson's parents were murdered or how he came to be living with Bruce was in one of the paperbacks related to the show that I found in a used bookstore in the 70s. (I think there were two paperbacks? I had the one with the green cover. Never read the other one, unfortunately.)

I know nothing about Commissioner Gordon's family life. Is it stated somewhere that Barbara is an only child? I'm afraid I've only seen most of the 3rd season episodes one time. I would say the explanation is simply that they didn't care about continuity on that show. Something would show up in one episode, never to be seen again, criminals would be out of prison 3 weeks later, etc. A couple of rare pieces of continuity that I can think of offhand both involve Catwoman scripts, and that would be due to them being written by the same person: Stanley Ralph Ross. They were churning out shows fast and furious then, so they probably didn't worry much about continuity with the rest of the writers coming in and out.

One thing that recently surprised me was hearing Alfred call Robin "Master Dick" twice in a scene in the Batcave, and asking where Master Bruce was instead of asking where Batman was. Most episodes seem to have Alfred referring to them in accordance to how they're dressed at the time, but the scene I'm talking about was early on, in 'Rats Like Cheese', so maybe they hadn't established that yet. Or maybe there are other instances of it occurring that I can't remember because the scenes have been cut. The 'Rats Like Cheese' scene that I'm talking about was cut out of the TVLand version.

[Jaws63]

Epaddon, speaking of Batman's motive for being Batman being told in the pilot, didn't they mention at least once during the show's run that Dick Grayson's parents were also murdered? I think it was in a one-liner (not a joke). Somebody made mention of both Bruce's and Dick's parents both being killed by criminals early on in the show.

Or am I misremembering the whole t'ing?

Thanks!

I think I can answer your question, there was never any mention of Dick's parents at any point in the shows run. The only blood relation he had with anyone on the show was his aunt Harriett.

That brings me to another point. It was mentioned in "The bat's Kow tow" in the Chad and Jeremy Concert at the tail end of the show that the commissioner's grand children asked him to see this concert. If the commissioner had grandchildren, how is it that Barbera is an only child and has no kids?

My first introduction to knowing that Dick Grayson's parents were murdered or how he came to be living with Bruce was in one of the paperbacks related to the show that I found in a used bookstore in the 70s. (I think there were two paperbacks? I had the one with the green cover. Never read the other one, unfortunately.)

I know nothing about Commissioner Gordon's family life. Is it stated somewhere that Barbara is an only child? I'm afraid I've only seen most of the 3rd season episodes one time. I would say the explanation is simply that they didn't care about continuity on that show. Something would show up in one episode, never to be seen again, criminals would be out of prison 3 weeks later, etc. A couple of rare pieces of continuity that I can think of offhand both involve Catwoman scripts, and that would be due to them being written by the same person: Stanley Ralph Ross. They were churning out shows fast and furious then, so they probably didn't worry much about continuity with the rest of the writers coming in and out.

One thing that recently surprised me was hearing Alfred call Robin "Master Dick" twice in a scene in the Batcave, and asking where Master Bruce was instead of asking where Batman was. Most episodes seem to have Alfred referring to them in accordance to how they're dressed at the time, but the scene I'm talking about was early on, in 'Rats Like Cheese', so maybe they hadn't established that yet. Or maybe there are other instances of it occurring that I can't remember because the scenes have been cut. The 'Rats Like Cheese' scene that I'm talking about was cut out of the TVLand version.

I think the thing that bugs me about the continuity gaffs is that there is a modest amount of continuity(Penguin recognizing Alfred in the restaurant episode, Commissioner telling Batman Catwoman is still alive after dying in her previous episode, Seeing the Bat diamond in the Shame episode). The statement of Babs being an only child actually came in season 2, "King tut's coup, Batman's waterlou" to be exact. Barbera is also mentioned in the final season 2 episode with Mr.
Freeze. Season 3 shows Gorden to be an over protective father to Barbera, but the "Only child" bit was mentioned in one episode, never to be brought up again. It really bugs me that the commissioner as over protective as he is, was not bright enough to figure out that his daughter was Batgirl...plausible deniability? In the case of Dick Grayson, Aunt Harriett was more like a mother figure to both Dick and Bruce, the difference here is that Harriett was more of a backburner character. We can easily make an assumption that something must have happened to Dick's parents, but there is no backstory with this what so ever, I'll forgive any missed opportunities with Harriett. You can't even lay the problem of continuity on short term, long term memory or even blme the shifting of writers, it's the producer himself that has the final say as to what gets to go on the broadcast result. If you look at the Penguin for mayor episode, Batman wins the Indian vote, but just two episodes previous in the Egghead episode, Screaming chicken is the only Indian in Gotham. Catwoman(in the Chad and Jeremy episode) remembers that Batman saved her life, and this was several episodes past.

So yes, there are things that are very contradictory we are forced to ignore, which is why I could wrap my mind around Alfred being Barbera's niece, easier than her being the daughter of the police commissioner...just my thought on this.

[Mr.Freeze]

If only one had a time machine and could go back in time and re-work the scripts/get more funding for sets etc , I'd have Chris Lee for example as a mad scientist

[Gernot]

Batman winning the Indian vote is EASY to explain, though. Someone asked Screaming Chicken who he'd voted for and he said, "Batman!"

The next day, the headlines rang out: "BATMAN GETS 100% OF INDIAN VOTE!"

[Gernot]

As for continuity in the show, they DID use it to some extent in King Tut's episodes, too. They referenced Tut's first appearance at the time of his second. Then, they referenced several episodes at one time in Commissioner Gordon's office in one episode when Bruce and Dick were kidnapped by Louie The Lilac (I THINK that's who it was), and they were studying some of Batman and Robin's previous cases in order to get some crime-fighting tips and pointers. All they showed was the Dynamic Duo in several of their cliffhanger scenes!

[Gleeps, it's Batman]

As for continuity in the show, they DID use it to some extent in King Tut's episodes, too. They referenced Tut's first appearance at the time of his second. Then, they referenced several episodes at one time in Commissioner Gordon's office in one episode when Bruce and Dick were kidnapped by Louie The Lilac (I THINK that's who it was), and they were studying some of Batman and Robin's previous cases in order to get some crime-fighting tips and pointers. All they showed was the Dynamic Duo in several of their cliffhanger scenes!

I figure it was a money-saving measure to show clips of old episodes. Less scenes to film, wrap up early, no over-time.

[Gernot]

If they'd wanted to save money, why didn't they just try to make the cast and crew PAY to leave? LOL