Allan Moore's Gone Off - AGAIN

General goings on in the 1966 Batman World

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Keith Mayo
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Allan Moore's Gone Off - AGAIN

Post by Keith Mayo »

"It's the very essence of our democracy". - Batman, S1 Ep 11
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rsaffle
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Re: Allan Moore's Gone Off - AGAIN

Post by rsaffle »

Not sure if Adams is the best Batman but It holds a special place in my heart.
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Dan E Kool
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Re: Allan Moore's Gone Off - AGAIN

Post by Dan E Kool »

"Several years ago, I said I thought it was a really worrying sign, that hundreds of thousands of adults were queuing up to see characters that were created 50 years ago to entertain 12-year-old boys. That seemed to speak to some kind of longing to escape from the complexities of the modern world, and go back to a nostalgic, remembered childhood. That seemed dangerous, it was infantilizing the population."

I enjoy his work. This quote made me pause.
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Ben Bentley
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Re: Allan Moore's Gone Off - AGAIN

Post by Ben Bentley »

Dan E Kool wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:53 am "Several years ago, I said I thought it was a really worrying sign, that hundreds of thousands of adults were queuing up to see characters that were created 50 years ago to entertain 12-year-old boys. That seemed to speak to some kind of longing to escape from the complexities of the modern world, and go back to a nostalgic, remembered childhood. That seemed dangerous, it was infantilizing the population."

I enjoy his work. This quote made me pause.
Like anything in this world, it always comes down to the crucial and highly subjective context that is far too much effort for most people to consider when making sweeping observations like Moore is prone to. Enjoying coffee as part of your day is not the same thing as someone who replaces sleep with caffeine in the midst of some kind of traumatic life event... Reflecting on the simplicity of childhood enjoyment can be a very grounding excercise in the haze of adult life's persistent day to day complications. Actively attempting to regress to childhood is not the same thing.
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Dan E Kool
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Re: Allan Moore's Gone Off - AGAIN

Post by Dan E Kool »

Yeah, that's why I drink green tea.

No, in all seriousness, I don't think that's the point that Moore is making. Moore argues that Batman has become a dark character because adult fans are unwilling to leave him in their childhood. Writers, as I interpret his comment, have dragged Batman and other comic book characters down into the harsh reality of their own adulthood.
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Ben Bentley
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Re: Allan Moore's Gone Off - AGAIN

Post by Ben Bentley »

Dan E Kool wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:14 am Yeah, that's why I drink green tea.

No, in all seriousness, I don't think that's the point that Moore is making. Moore argues that Batman has become a dark character because adult fans are unwilling to leave him in their childhood. Writers, as I interpret his comment, have dragged Batman and other comic book characters down into the harsh reality of their own adulthood.
Ahhh gotcha. I like your interpretation Dan, that totally stands to reason.
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AndyFish
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Re: Allan Moore's Gone Off - AGAIN

Post by AndyFish »

He’s right about the downward turn of the comics industry. Adam is easily the best Batman of the last 50 years
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Jimmy L. 66
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Re: Allan Moore's Gone Off - AGAIN

Post by Jimmy L. 66 »

"What do you think about Moore's comments, both about The Killing Joke and his choice of West as the best live-action Batman? Let us know your thoughts in the comments."

I agree that West is the best, but not for the same reasons I guess.
I think "The Killing Joke" is one one of the best Batman stories ever told and, even more so, I enjoy the discourse that it evokes- "Did Batman kill the Joker or not" (Let me know if you'd like to discuss it)
I agree with what he says about the super hero movie infantilizing a generation, and I am not sure how that makes me feel.

It is hard for me to wrap my head around distancing myself from a piece of work, but I didn't get F'd over by DC, at least not yet.
Bat Mitch
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Re: Allan Moore's Gone Off - AGAIN

Post by Bat Mitch »

I'm not entirely sure I agree with Alan Moore's comment that super hero movies have infantilized anyone. Today's super hero movies probably wouldn't be earning grosses at the $1 billion level if they weren't aimed at younger and older audiences. I think super hero movies have grown up more than the audience has become "infantilized".

Also, I think Alan Moore said he hasn't seen a super hero movie since the 1989 Batman. I'd say that super hero movies have become more sophisticated and engaging than Batman '89, which I've always found kinda disjointed and overrated. If that was the last super hero movie that Alan Moore has seen, I'd understand his viewpoint and recommend he see some more recent super hero movies.
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Jimmy L. 66
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Re: Allan Moore's Gone Off - AGAIN

Post by Jimmy L. 66 »

Dan E Kool wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:14 am Yeah, that's why I drink green tea.

No, in all seriousness, I don't think that's the point that Moore is making. Moore argues that Batman has become a dark character because adult fans are unwilling to leave him in their childhood. Writers, as I interpret his comment, have dragged Batman and other comic book characters down into the harsh reality of their own adulthood.
This makes more (moore) sense.
The characters dont necessarily need to mature as we do.
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SprangFan
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Re: Allan Moore's Gone Off - AGAIN

Post by SprangFan »

I would agree with the general idea that comic book superheroes are an inherently juvenile concept and no amount of grafted-on "mature" themes will change that. As far as comics go, though, I'm not sure they can still be accurately labeled "escapism" as, in general, the fictional worlds they depict are if anything more bleak and hopeless than the one we live in. Superheroes themselves have changed from wish-fulfilling characters who can swoop in and fix the world's ills in 22 pages, to depraved, conflicted, psychologically scarred disasters incapable of holding togehter their own lives, let alone anyone else's.

But the movies, at least from Marvel, do retain the old-school elements of escapism and white-hatted good guys who end up victorious at the end of the day. That in itself is not a bad thing, obviously, and far from limited to the cape-and-spandex crowd. Was it "infantilizing" to enjoy Errol Flynn swashbucklers or Indiana Jones movies or John Wayne's shoot-em-ups? If so, America's been full of "babies" for a long time.
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Scott Sebring
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Re: Allan Moore's Gone Off - AGAIN

Post by Scott Sebring »

Kudos to Moore for digging Adam. Kudos to Moore for acknowledging the inherent flaw of 'The Killing Joke." Beyond that, his observations/opinions hardly reflect my own. Not the first time. So what? HaHa.
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cdub
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Re: Allan Moore's Gone Off - AGAIN

Post by cdub »

I didn't care for The Killing Joke that much besides the artwork. I do believe Alan Moore is a very talented writer and I enjoy much of his work. Even if he thinks The Batman was created to entertain 12-year old boys it was still pretty dark at the beginning. And I am not so sure of his assessment to begin with. How many 12-year olds had money during the great depression to buy comics?
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TP-6597
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Re: Allan Moore's Gone Off - AGAIN

Post by TP-6597 »

As Ben said, there is a very big difference between enjoying an occasional episode of a TV show from childhood vs actively trying to live within that childhood as an adult. As far as Moore’s take of infantilism in the genre, I can see some of that, but not nearly at the level he’s decided is the case.

His claim that people have tried to pull their favorite childhood characters into modern reality is where I probably agree most, but not for the same reasons. He (or someone in this discussion) says it’s as a form of childlike escapism. I think it’s more as a form of wish fulfillment. Modern superhero films are so gritty and violent, they hardly pass as escapism.

We live in a world full of hate, violence, discrimination, and disease. Going to the theater to watch superheroes deal with that same world Isn’t exactly escaping anything. Except perhaps the inability to conquer it in real life. For me personally, that’s why I’ve not cared for much after Batman89. Pulling Batman into our own harsh reality has pulled him into being some sort of weird cosplay character. The Nolan/Bale take looks ridiculous at times. That guy wouldn’t be a super hero protector of a city, he’d be locked up due to mental illness.

Batman66 and Batman89 keep one foot in the comic book world and, to me, that makes them work. I have zero interest in Batman being reality based. It’s a preposterous premise to begin with. Trying to present him as a possible reality is missing the point. Batman66 works perfectly because it knows exactly what it is. It’s the story of a millionaire do-gooder from the comic book world, not some mentally damaged vigilante yelling “SWEAR TO ME!”.

For context; I have a few T-shirts that I wear on the weekends, a coffee cup I drink out of every morning during the baseball offseason (Astros the rest of the year), and a few Hot Wheels gathering dust in a drawer. I watch an episode or two nearly every week. I pull them up at the end of the evening, just before bed, and let the weight of reality fall away for 30 minutes while I decompress. For me, Batman is exactly where he belongs. He’s not real and I’m not him.
“What's important is that the world know that all visitors to these teeming shores are safe, be they peasant or king.”
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Dan E Kool
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Re: Allan Moore's Gone Off - AGAIN

Post by Dan E Kool »

LOVE that Mystery Bat Machine in your profile pic, TP-6597! Zoinks!
Scott Sebring wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:27 am Kudos to Moore for digging Adam. Kudos to Moore for acknowledging the inherent flaw of 'The Killing Joke."
And kudos to YOU for acknowledging the acknowledgement that I am giving to you right at this moment.
No? OK.

I like Moore's take here. Not because I agree with it, but because it's thought provoking. He seems to feel some regret for the way he portrayed the character. Possibly some regret for the mature direction he took the comics medium in, as well.

Unlike some of you, I haven't kept up with his interviews at all, so this candid response was news to me. But artists often do look back on their careers with a more critical eye than their fans. Kind of a shame, when you think about it.
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