Batman V. Superman=World's Finest?

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Larry A.
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Batman V. Superman=World's Finest?

Post by Larry A. » Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:19 pm

Greetings to all.
In view of the shouting about Bv.S.:TDoJ, I thought that it might be a good time to start a new thread concerning this item. Granted, there are a lot of people who have grown up on The Dark Knight returns, but there are a large number of us who remember when Batman vs. Superman was more Batman + Superman, the World's Finest! Some of the finest stories came out of that comic series in the 50's and 60s.

Maybe it is time to make a retrograde move and encourage DC to get their two biggest characters back as friends again. That's my opinion, now let me heat Yours......
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Larry

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SprangFan
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Re: Batman V. Superman=World's Finest?

Post by SprangFan » Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:00 am

It'll never happen. DC is convinced the key to selling superheroes on film is to make them "mature," which translates as conflicted, morose, angry and depressed. That's partly down to the success of the Nolan films, but at this point it's also to differentiate themselves from the "sunnier" Marvel movie-verse.

That said, I would love to see a film with Superman and Batman as "pals," but the makers would have the same problem the comics faced; how do you come up with a worthy threat? It's hard enough with the Avengers, overloaded as they are with heavy hitters; with the Worlds Finest team you have to find something (1) big enough Superman can't handle it alone, but (2) not so big Batman couldn't possibly make a difference. (Superman: "Even I can't handle Galactus alone! Better get Batman!")

In the Silver/Atomic Ages, the comics dealt with this by pitting the pair against nuisances like Mxyzpltk and Bat-Mite (and Batwoman!), helping each other protect secret identities, time-travelling to meet the Three Musketeers, etc. All great fun, but for sure DC isn't going to be doing any "comedy" flicks. They did have a fearsome foe in The Composite Superman, but there's no way THAT would work in live action.

I really think that just as BvS makes everyone think, "How I that an even match?", a team up film would make us say, "tell me again why the most powerful being on Earth needs the help of a rich guy in a Halloween costume?"

I really think both characters are better served in their own little worlds. Batman working the streets and back alleys, Superman fighting giant robots and menaced from space.

At this point I will settle for any story that leaves out the Joker and Luthor.
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AndyFish
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Re: Batman V. Superman=World's Finest?

Post by AndyFish » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:55 am

Zack Snyder opted not to cast the Flash guy from the TV Show as the movie Flash because he said, and I'm likely misquoting a bit, that the character in the TV series was too lighthearted for what his movies are.

The reason Avengers and the Marvel films are so popular is there is a sense of fun-- much like Marvel Comics circa 1960s-1980s-- elements of humor mixed in with action and characters who are very likeable.

DC has veered off track, both with their film direction and with their comics. The Batman comics they publish are not my Batman. I loved The Dark Knight Returns because I saw it for what it was when it first came out, an innovative standalone graphic novel. DC can't help but chase it's own tail and retro fit Miller's story into it's own continuity.

For me, and the Batman that exists in my head, he's built more like Bruce Lee than Arnold, he's a welterweight at best and like Lee he is more than formidable against opponents twice his size. If he's a big muscle bound guy not only is he having trouble leaping from roof to roof but when he's dressed as Bruce Wayne people are going to be saying "Wow! He's buff!" that's ridiculous. Imagine how much better it is if Bruce is normal sized, unassuming, like Adam West or Michael Keaton-- it makes the likelihood of him being Batman much more ridiculous.

Smaller stature would also explain why he NEEDS the Batsuit-- to startle his opponents, to hide in the shadows.

DC Comics under Jeanette Kahn wasn't afraid to explore things like having Batman be in his 50s-- DC today under Dan Didio has no imagination, they just recycle old ideas.

Reviews for Batman V Superman are coming in-- and they're exactly as expected. Very dark, very grim, be wary if you're taking small children.

The only way DC rethinks the way it presents it's characters both on the screen and in it's comics is if this is a massive flop which stalls the Justice League franchise. Judging by reviews, maybe we shouldn't buy advance tickets to the solo Affleck Batman film-- I still remember George Clooney saying he was looking forward to playing Batman again, then the movie came out and ended any chance of that.

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NJ_Batfan
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Re: Batman V. Superman=World's Finest?

Post by NJ_Batfan » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:09 am

It is interesting to note that World's Finest Comics was being downsized to 32 pages and teaming up the characters in one feature was the logical alternative to dropping one of their solo strips from the magazine and potentially losing part of the readership. It didn't hurt that the pre-New Look Batman of the early sixties had a family of supporting cast members that paralleled Superman's, right down to snoopy reporter Vicki Vale as his Lois Lane, so they appeared similar enough. In the 70s, writers relied on guest stars and concepts like the Super Sons and Batman's previously unmentioned brother to hide the fact that the characters were different. By the 80s, the concept was wearing thin and DC suddenly declared in print that the two characters were never compatible anyway, so the emphasis altered to their being reluctant teammates who respected each other, but were not JLA bowling buddies. Enter Frank Miller's Dark Knight, which was radical for the times as an alternate take on the character, but became the norm because it sold boatloads of copies.

I should be very excited that my childhood heroes, who inspired me at a time when it appeared that the general public had no further interest in them, are finally hitting the mainstream, but these aren't my heroes, as evidenced by the fact that I'm posting on a board dedicated to the 1966 series. I still hope that those of you who are excited for it have your expectations fulfilled, though, because I also realize that if the characters are not updated for the times, they run the risk of becoming nostalgia characters like the Shadow, Phantom. or Lone Ranger, who did not fare well in their modern movie incarnations. I am very satisfied to stick with my 66 blurays and merchandise.

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Chuck Williams
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Re: Batman V. Superman=World's Finest?

Post by Chuck Williams » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:51 am

Andy hit it on the head, they just aren't likable to me like this. Nothing heroic in these "heros" at all.

It stinks of wish fulfillment of power to some core base of fan boys that are buying the comics and want it to be "realistic". Oooo, they may see Batgirl in a bad situation....Yuk!

Batman needs a less fascist and more zealous public defender slant to his character or he becomes Charles Bronson's Death Wish character in a cape and cowl. And Bronson did it better!

The Chris Reeve Superman (1 and 2) works but the writing let the franchise down over time.

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Batman65
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Re: Batman V. Superman=World's Finest?

Post by Batman65 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:07 am

My thoughts are pretty spot on with Andy and Chuck, then again I spoke my peace about this in some other threads.

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burkestudio
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Re: Batman V. Superman=World's Finest?

Post by burkestudio » Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:35 am

I think it stands to reason that if you enjoy this Forum/Board, then you probably have a preconceived idea of what a "hero' means to you (when I say hero, I mean that in the comic book genre).

I have been reading comics for as long as I can remember (I'm 41 now). I've always been a DC guy. And I can narrow that reason down to 3 people: Adam West, Christopher Reeve & George Reeves.

Looking back, what a great time it was to be a kid! You still had the good guy fighting the bad guy, but it came packaged with morals and ethics. Imaginations running wild! I remember playing "super heroes" at school or in the neighborhood.

I see the kids nowadays and I think, boy what a difference! Where I live, you don't see kids out playing anymore. And I'm in Sunny Southern California!! Most of the time, they have their faces buried in their cell phones.
I feel a movie like BvS is geared toward this newer generation where they need the big explosions to get their attention. And I fear that my childhood super heroes are almost if not completely extinct.

I was really happy when the 66 Batman Series was finally released. I hoped it would give the younger generation a glimpse of a simpler time. :)

All that being said, am I going to see the movie: Yes. It's still Batman.
Am I expecting it to be "Worlds Finest": No

My 2 Cents (so Chuck, I guess that makes 4 cents between us) ;) :lol: )
-Jeremy
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Re: Batman V. Superman=World's Finest?

Post by Bat Username » Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:46 am

AndyFish wrote:Judging by reviews, maybe we shouldn't buy advance tickets to the solo Affleck Batman film-- I still remember George Clooney saying he was looking forward to playing Batman again, then the movie came out and ended any chance of that.
It wouldn't surprise me if "Justice League: Part 1"(!) ends up being pushed back, but I think Affleck's solo film might be the only project that will be safe from studio fallout should BvS fail to meet expectations. If they don't know what to do, they'll turn to Batman again.

Both you and Chuck hit on a key problem for Warner going forward, though. Simply from a business standpoint, you ideally want these films to appeal to a mass audience. As long as they're fun and accessible, it doesn't matter if the property is as unusual as Guardians of the Galaxy, Thor, or Deadpool. Audiences will respond.

The public is less responsive when it feels like the target audience is more niche, such as comic fanboys who take all this stuff very, very seriously. You just can't make a film like Watchmen and expect it to perform at the same level as an Iron Man or Avengers.

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SprangFan
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Re: Batman V. Superman=World's Finest?

Post by SprangFan » Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:54 pm

I have to agree it's disappointing that now that we live an age where big-budget superhero films are plentiful -- something I could only dream about as a kid -- I find I cannot in good conscience take my young children to see a great number of them. It doesn't seem like that long ago I couldn't even have conceived of a time where Superman and Batman were "inappropriate for children," but that's how I view them now.

I know DC (and Marvel, really) have doubled down on pandering to their aging fanbase with brutal, nihilistic, sexually suggestive material, but that's because they've given up, maybe correctly, on convincing kids to spend 4 and 5 dollars an issue on comics that spread 4 pages of plot over 24 pages, especially when they have to ask their parents to make a special trip to a special store just to find the things. But in my opinion it's a mistake to tailor a mass-marketed motion picture to the same sensibilities; they need to be more accessible and family-friendly, a fact Marvel seems to "get" (or comes a lot closer, anyway).

It's so weird to be in Wal-Mart and see capes and masks and shields and helmets and other low-end "cosplay" items I would've fainted over as a kid, and realize they're tied to movies kids probably shouldn't even be watching. I think of all the kids before me who grew up with homemade masks playing Lone Ranger or Zorro in the backyard, and myself playing Superman and Batman, and I wonder: do kids today even fantasize about being Superman and Batman any more? If so, why? Surely not because they represent giddy, escapist fun, as they did to young me? Batman is tortured and haunted, Superman is conflicted and ineffectual...what's the appeal? If they do play superhero, how do they play? Do they put a "beat down" on each other, treating the "costume" angle about like you would Mexican wrestling? Do they "fight villains" and "stop crimes" at all, or just pound on each other and argue over who's toughest?

And what about the parents? Remember the furor when Burton's "Batman Returns" was marketed with Happy Meals, so parents took their kids to the theater, only to be appalled and outraged by the film itself? Are we "over" that kind of righteous indignation now? Is everyone okay with what these movies have turned into?

It just seems to me sometimes that there are two conflicting mindsets at work: the people who make and sell the films, who want them darker and darker (now they're talking about making them all "R" rated) and the people who buy the licensing rights and churn out toys for kids, like it's still "kids stuff."

Honestly the whole "Superhero" thing makes no sense to me now. But to get back on topic, I don't think we'll see Superman and Batman as "pals" any time soon. And the "Justice League," if there ends up being one, is likely to be dysfunctional and argumentative, as well.

Sorry for the rant. If you'll excuse me I've got to go chase some youngsters off my lawn.
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Batman65
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Re: Batman V. Superman=World's Finest?

Post by Batman65 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:04 pm

Sprangfan, I actually think you hit the nail right on the head with your so called "rant". The imagination is just gone, and it is sad. These are different times indeed.

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burkestudio
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Re: Batman V. Superman=World's Finest?

Post by burkestudio » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:23 pm

SprangFan wrote:...(now they're talking about making them all "R" rated)...
I thought I had read somewhere that the Blu-Ray and/or Digital Release of BvS will contain an R-rated version.
And I'm pretty sure the article said R-rated, not "Directors Cut".

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Re: Batman V. Superman=World's Finest?

Post by Bat Username » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:39 pm

burkestudio wrote:I thought I had read somewhere that the Blu-Ray and/or Digital Release of BvS will contain an R-rated version. And I'm pretty sure the article said R-rated, not "Directors Cut".
Yes, it's been revealed that the blu-ray will contain an R-rated cut.

To echo one critic's remark about BvS, I'm not really sure I want to see the Justice League movie that is being set up here.

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Re: Batman V. Superman=World's Finest?

Post by Batfink » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:00 pm

I think with the box office on an Easter weekend that was so large reveals a number of things:

1. Regardless of criticism, people wanted to see to iconic figures like Batman & Superman in a movie.
2. Regardless if they are comic book fans, people want to see a movie with iconic figures like Batman & Superman.
3. Opening weekend is where the most money comes in during the theatrical life of a film.
4. Regardless if you are a comic book fan or agree with the majority of film critics that the film is awful (I think it was so bad on so many levels, personally) WB & DC make decisions based financial performance. Bottom line for them is if people will pay money, period, to see their product on the big screen.
5. With such a large opening weekend, they will let Zack Snyder do what he wants with the JLA movie. They entrust in HIS vision, not on yours as a fan.
6. "Canon" or history of the main characters in the comics is open game for interpretation. There is no strict adherence to it anymore (Batman shooting a gun, be it in HIS dream sequence or not, and killing someone is not inline with the character's core belief. His Parents were killed by gun. He will do everything in his power NOT to use one. This is why he trains so hard to be smarter and better. Don't get me started on their treatment of Superman!) The general public don't know this. They just see "Batman" as a character icon. They don't care. And the studio heads just care about money.

So, what does this all mean?

You'll get more Batman and Superman and other DC characters but the things you may have loved in them might not be the same as what the studio heads, writers, producers & directors think they should be in their films. They will continue on this dark path. Sneering & frowning all the way to the bank.

On another note, I was quite surprised to see families blindly bring very young kids to see this. It tells me that dark times are acceptable and given a blind eye to kids today. This will continue to grow in my view. Regarding the McDonald's Happy Meal tie-in in '92 for Batman Returns. The times were very different. The bombardment of what is acceptable in dark tone for a family is quite different back then as it is today in 2016.

I jumped off the regular DC comic bandwagon with the launch of The New 52. You're going to see more and more relaunches like that too. They feel it entices new readers I guess. I'm not sure on that one.
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Re: Batman V. Superman=World's Finest?

Post by TBolt » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:22 am

There's a DC relaunch coming this summer, less character diversity. Lots of Batman, Superman and GL related titles, nothing interesting or different, just mostly the same 8-9 characters over and over. The opening weekend was low compared to Iron Man 3 and that is not a good sign. It should have been huge Avengers type numbers for such a big deal featuring the big 3 together on a movie screen for the first time.
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Re: Batman V. Superman=World's Finest?

Post by BATWINGED HORNET » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:22 pm

AndyFish wrote:The reason Avengers and the Marvel films are so popular is there is a sense of fun-- much like Marvel Comics circa 1960s-1980s-- elements of humor mixed in with action and characters who are very likeable.
...except that the arc is increasingly darker. Captain America: The Winter Soldier was no Power Rangers romp like The Avengers. There were assassinations, assassination attempts, brutal fighting and a grim story about government under the control of a fascist organization (Hydra). That film was a massive hit, and the best Marvel film to date.

Captain America: Civil War will continue on that same path, and now, the heroes split into sides at each others' throats. Death will figure prominently in the film, so Marvel's best work is that which plays it serious, or dark--like the best of their Silver & Bronze Age comics.
Imagine how much better it is if Bruce is normal sized, unassuming, like Adam West or Michael Keaton-- it makes the likelihood of him being Batman much more ridiculous.

Smaller stature would also explain why he NEEDS the Batsuit-- to startle his opponents, to hide in the shadows.
Michael Keaton was an abysmal choice. There's no version of Wayne who was short, grossly out of shape and balding. The point was that he trained himself to come close to the pinnacle of human (non enhanced) development, if he was to have any kind of edge over the endless types of people he would encounter. Sticking a twerp in a padded suit just shined a light on how wrongheaded Tim Burton was. He was the same man who told NBC that he cast Keaton because he did not like the "square jawed hero" type. Yes, he said that, and the results bear out his revisionist beliefs on superheroes.

This is the same guy who wanted to continue his issues with strong male figures by casting Nicholas Cage in his thankfully aborted Superman project.


The only way DC rethinks the way it presents it's characters both on the screen and in it's comics is if this is a massive flop which stalls the Justice League franchise. Judging by reviews, maybe we shouldn't buy advance tickets to the solo Affleck Batman film-- I still remember George Clooney saying he was looking forward to playing Batman again, then the movie came out and ended any chance of that.
BVS is a solid hit (420 million opening), and only a few days old. By the time its theatrical run ends, WB will be more than happy with this launch film for the bigger DC movie universe.
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