John Astin May Have Noot Been Good As The Riddler, But . . .

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High C
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Re: John Astin May Have Noot Been Good As The Riddler, But .

Post by High C »

Riddler Fan wrote: For unclear reasons Gorshin did not want to play Riddler during the second season.
Actually, the reasons are rather clear. There has been a widely circulated memo from William Dozier's files in which he rejects Frank's request for a raise from $3,500 to $5,000. Gorshin's new reps at the time, the William Morris agency, asked for the raise because he was the breakout star among the season 1 villains.

It's unfortunate that this affected the show. I can see both sides of the contract dispute--Frank's manic portrayal stole the show in the pilot and helped jump-start the series. However, if Dozier gives in, then the rest of the Big Four--Julie, Burgess and Cesar--would've wanted raises, too.
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Riddler Fan
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Re: John Astin May Have Noot Been Good As The Riddler, But .

Post by Riddler Fan »

High C wrote:
Riddler Fan wrote: For unclear reasons Gorshin did not want to play Riddler during the second season.
Actually, the reasons are rather clear. There has been a widely circulated memo from William Dozier's files in which he rejects Frank's request for a raise from $3,500 to $5,000. Gorshin's new reps at the time, the William Morris agency, asked for the raise because he was the breakout star among the season 1 villains.

It's unfortunate that this affected the show. I can see both sides of the contract dispute--Frank's manic portrayal stole the show in the pilot and helped jump-start the series. However, if Dozier gives in, then the rest of the Big Four--Julie, Burgess and Cesar--would've wanted raises, too.
Sadly Dozier's cheapness would continue and do to Batman what no Bat-Villain(ess) could do, eliminate Batman and Robin!!
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Dr. Shimel
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Re: John Astin May Have Noot Been Good As The Riddler, But .

Post by Dr. Shimel »

High C wrote:
Riddler Fan wrote: For unclear reasons Gorshin did not want to play Riddler during the second season.
Actually, the reasons are rather clear. There has been a widely circulated memo from William Dozier's files in which he rejects Frank's request for a raise from $3,500 to $5,000. Gorshin's new reps at the time, the William Morris agency, asked for the raise because he was the breakout star among the season 1 villains.

It's unfortunate that this affected the show. I can see both sides of the contract dispute--Frank's manic portrayal stole the show in the pilot and helped jump-start the series. However, if Dozier gives in, then the rest of the Big Four--Julie, Burgess and Cesar--would've wanted raises, too.
Frank did have one bargaining chip the others didn't: he was the only actor from the show nominated for an Emmy
Sol
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Re: John Astin May Have Noot Been Good As The Riddler, But .

Post by Sol »

Thanks, High C, for the detail about the memo.
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Lee Kirkham
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Re: John Astin May Have Noot Been Good As The Riddler, But .

Post by Lee Kirkham »

It's always been my contention that the unfortunate thing about this episode is that it was a great story, with a great actor who had the unenviable task of portraying a villain who had already been indelibly portrayed by another actor.

When Gorshin portrayed Riddler, he absolutely owned it (to this very day). Astin tried putting his own spin on it, and I believe his version was extremely fun and interesting. Much to his dismay, the public didn't want that, they wanted Gorshin's manic, maniacal madman.

I wish John had been given his own villain to embody, that would have been classic. Sadly, he simply gets labeled as the other guy who played the Riddler.

My two cents.
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Riddler Fan
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Re: John Astin May Have Noot Been Good As The Riddler, But .

Post by Riddler Fan »

What seems forgotten is this was Riddler's only appearance during the second season. The other "riddler" story for season two was quickly rewritten as a Puzzler story. Riddler is the only Bat Villain to be played by two different actors and have the original actor return to play the part after another actor had done so. Anne Baxter has the unique distinction of being the only actor to play two different villains.
WayneGrayson
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Re: John Astin May Have Noot Been Good As The Riddler, But .

Post by WayneGrayson »

Oh, I think so. I had a beef with the Astin episode, but not because of his performance, I just missed Frank Gorshin...so if Astin was in it from the beginning, that would have been fine. As for the other villains played by more than one actor, I could have done without Eli Wallach's "Mr Freeze", but Eartha Kitt's Catwoman was astounding. I'm a huge Julie fan and I wasn't at all upset that Kitt stepped in. She made the character her own. Favorite Kitt-Cat moment - all the purring she did when she had Batgirl snagged for the fabric cutting machine in "Dressed to Kill" - more like "Dressed to Keep me in Stitches". I was howling all the way through. A GREAT Season Three episode.
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BatmiteReturns
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Re: John Astin May Have Noot Been Good As The Riddler, But .

Post by BatmiteReturns »

Considering the millions they made off the show I don't think a renegotiation was too much to ask.

Gorshin was born to play the Riddler.
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LuckyLadybug
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Re: John Astin May Have Noot Been Good As The Riddler, But .

Post by LuckyLadybug »

Riddler Fan wrote:I just can't agree that Astin's two parter was written with Gorshin in mind. I didn't see Astin wringing his hands hunch over and cackling madly. Likewise I cannot picture Gorshin at the window of the banquet revealing his costume under a raincoat, nor can I imagine Gorshin doing an underwater bank robbery. Keep in mind two things were developed just for Astin's Riddler two parter, the question mark cane and the question marked wetsuit. Although I feel Astin was good in his version of Riddler, I think the story was disappointing. I thought the quicksand cake was one of the most villainous deathtraps ever (tinged with irony), but what was Riddler's ultimate goal? To legalize crime. Talk about a buzz kill!! And why was Astin's Riddler always wearing a disguise over his costume?
I haven't seen the John Astin episodes yet, but I saw a picture this morning where he had the question mark cane and I was wondering if that was the very first time the weapon was ever used! Was it featured in the comics before that, or had it never been conceived of prior to Astin's portrayal? As a devotee of The Batman cartoon, I can't picture The Riddler not having that cane, so it intrigues me to think of it originating with yet another less-loved version of the character.
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Riddler Fan
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Re: John Astin May Have Noot Been Good As The Riddler, But .

Post by Riddler Fan »

Astin had two thing Gorshin never had, the question mark cane and the question mark wetsuit. Even Astin's shoes were different. Gorshin's Riddler wore green ballet slippers and Astin wore green loafers. One other slight difference was the eye mask Astin wore was more like a pair of glasses.
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LuckyLadybug
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Re: John Astin May Have Noot Been Good As The Riddler, But .

Post by LuckyLadybug »

Yeah, understood. My question is whether the cane was used in the comics before the TV show used it or if the TV show was the very first time it was used anywhere.
noman
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Re: John Astin May Have Noot Been Good As The Riddler, But .

Post by noman »

Astin had a particular kind of craziness acting-the part he played should have been tailored according to his talents-such as Caesar Romero as Joker; Burgess Meredith as Pengiun and Julie Newmar as Catwoman. How about something like the Trickster-then the quicksand cake could have blended in as well
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Batfink
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Re: John Astin May Have Noot Been Good As The Riddler, But .

Post by Batfink »

This is a good thread! I just saw the Astin episode last night on Blu-Ray. He does his own take on it. Unfortunate for him is that it wasn't that interesting.
That said, there is no ownership of the role - at all - in his Riddler. Gorshin OWNED that role. What he did was so creative, brilliant, engaging and fun. I think the other Freeze's or Kitt's Catwoman were portrayed by actors that sunk their chops into it and brought something to the game. I think the approach Astin tried..well, sunk. It didn't soar like Frank's vision of the character.
Also, the point about a contract dispute makes total sense. To those that think Dozier could easily increase the pay per episode, I have to disagree.
From all that I've read about the show, it was one of the most expensive shows to produce and shoot on TV at the time. As an Executive Producer, you can bet he's hearing from the network and the studio and the sponsors to keep costs down-- even when the show is a hit.
He could see that the principal villains would want what Frank's asking -- and you can bet they or their agents knew it was in play and were ready for word to ask for themselves if he got it.
The episode did not do so well and I read somewhere that Frank really disliked Astin's performance that he decided to come back in Season 3. The shows ratings were going down. I bet he told his agent to "forget about it" and he'll just do the part. May be wrong though...
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noman
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Re: John Astin May Have Noot Been Good As The Riddler, But .

Post by noman »

Inceidently Riddler made only two appearences in the 3rd series:
At the end of Enter Batgiel/Exit Penguin is the fammous Riddler joke -why is a daffadil like a Jet stream?
Off Topic
[http://www.66batman.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/Y ... 4/offtopic]-he does appear in the next epsiode in "Ring Around the Riddler" But the Riddle is never answeared! {According to one tread-the answear is "They're both YELLOW"

Astin would have made a good Batman Villian-just if it only been tailored to his particular talents as a comedic actor... :x
Two of his quotes are listed here:
noman
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Re: John Astin May Have Noot Been Good As The Riddler, But .

Post by noman »

Likewise Maurice Evans as the Puzzler...a subsitute for the Riddler...he would have been better as a Ham actor who turns to crime..... with a name like the Thespian :lol: :x :x
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