If not Astin, then who?

[Riddler Fan]

I think the story line for the Astin two parter was interesting, yet ultimately it lead to just a lame attempt to legalise crime in Gotham City. The quicksand deathrap is one of the best ever. It's cruel enough to do away with Batman by drowning him and Robin in quicksand, but to do it on top of Batman's own anniversary cake is the twisting of the knife into the wound. Its a combination of both mental and physical villainy.

Having watched these two episodes many times, I just can't see Gorshin playing Riddler as Astin did. Can you picture Gorshin jumping onto that window sill and exposing his garish green leotards from under a rain coat? Astin was physically much larger than Gorshin and I think that played to his advantage. He looked like the kind of guy who could kick Batman's butt. Gorshin was more like an annoying pest. He used mental abuse rather than physical strength.

One other thing that has also bugged me is the surprising lack of riddles in the two parter. I'm much more a fan of Astin's portrayal than the story.

[mattman]

I am watching an episode of Taxi and was wondering that if he show did continue into the seventies (and beyond) a good Riddler would have been Andy Kaufman. Saying that Judd Hirsch could have been Louie and Christopher Lloyd could be the Joker. Jeff Conaway ((Kenicke) could be Shame, Danny De Vito could be the Peng...oh.
Anyway,the whole cast of Taxi aside I stick by my Riddler in the 70s casting. Kaufman the comic genius

[epaddon]

Saying that Judd Hirsch could have been Louie and Christopher Lloyd could be the Joker. Jeff Conaway ((Kenicke) could be Shame, Danny De Vito could be the Peng...oh.

What, no Marilu Henner as Poison Ivy?

[mattman]

She's not great....she can be an older Zelda, lol

[Mr. Deathtrap]

Riddler Fan,

I was surprised you felt the Batman's Anniversary / Riddling Controversy story lacked riddles and watched it again.

The first riddle I saw was the wordplay about heralding an engaging page which led Batman to the crossword puzzle with clues leading to the flooded bank. After the underwater fight, they received the riddle about the quicksand, which was more of a tipoff like Riddler used to warn Batman about the lawsuit he was being manipulated into facing in the pilot.

In episode 2, the riddle about the eagle's nest leads Batman to the penthouse forest and Batman is then confronted with the riddle of the Sphinx, one of the most famous riddles in the world. Finally, the combination of riddles riddle appears.

So, we have six riddles in the story in addition to the crossword clues and the puzzle cage.

Finally, Astin's Riddler employed disguies like the firemen, the baker, and the man sweeping around the statue. This was a relatively new approach of the character and I did not dislike it.

Mr. Deathtrap

[Riddler Fan]

Riddler Fan,

I was surprised you felt the Batman's Anniversary / Riddling Controversy story lacked riddles and watched it again.

The first riddle I saw was the wordplay about heralding an engaging page which led Batman to the crossword puzzle with clues leading to the flooded bank. After the underwater fight, they received the riddle about the quicksand, which was more of a tipoff like Riddler used to warn Batman about the lawsuit he was being manipulated into facing in the pilot.

In episode 2, the riddle about the eagle's nest leads Batman to the penthouse forest and Batman is then confronted with the riddle of the Sphinx, one of the most famous riddles in the world. Finally, the combination of riddles riddle appears.

So, we have six riddles in the story in addition to the crossword clues and the puzzle cage.

Finally, Astin's Riddler employed disguies like the firemen, the baker, and the man sweeping around the statue. This was a relatively new approach of the character and I did not dislike it.

Mr. Deathtrap

I count only one actually "riddle" in Batman's Anniversary, "When is a man drowned, yet not wet?" There are only two riddles in A Riddling Controversy, "When is an eagles nest blessed best" and "What walks on four legs at dawn, two legs at noon and three legs in the evening?" By my count, that is three riddlers over a one hour period.

Also there is only one time in the two episodes where Astin's Riddler says Gorshin's tag line "Riddle me this...?" and that was just before he set off the window sill puzzle trap. Many of the so called "riddles" were more like clues than outright questions. So we can argue over what is a riddle and what is a clue.

I agree with you totally that Astin's Riddler kept his evil costume underwraps too many times during the episodes. It really bugged me that he wasn't wearing either of his costumes when he trapped B&R in his quicksand deathtrap. I noticed that anytime the action was outdoors, this Riddler wore a disguise over his garish green leotard and tights outfit, which I've never been able to understand?

The one thing that I've always liked is how fiendishly Astin played The Riddler, which was completely different from Gorshin's manic performance.

[Lou Szabo]

If Michael Landon had done it, people would have been wondering what Little Joe was doing in a leotard and tights.

Don Knotts, while he was a good comedian, really didn't have the kind of manic edge that Gorshin brought to it. He'd be more of a Nervous Nelly type.

Okay, I am officially reversing my opinion; Dick Van Dyke is definitely a contender in my book.

Not to hijack the thread, but Don Knotts as Scarecrow - very interesting.

Some other's that might fit the bill:
Sid Caesar
Carl Ballantine
Don Rickles
Jerry Stiller

Tim Conway
Wally Cox

[Riddler Fan]

I can just see Don Rickles as The Riddler. "Hey Batman, riddle me this you hockey puck!!!"

[epaddon]

No way on Wally Cox. If there's one role you're going to give to Mr. Peepers it's Bookworm which he would have been perfect for if they'd revisited the character again (given that McDowall was unavaiable for TV once he started doing Planet Of The Apes).

[John Mack]

I liked the change from Gorshin to Astin because it showed that not just one person could play a character just like all of us kids playing Batman in our backyards. I think I was more shocked to see the different Catwomen, especially Eartha Kitt as she was such a departure from the whole Newmar character. But, no...Astin was great. I liked the underwater Batfight music as well, being so into the music aspect of the series.

John

[mattman]

And Anna Gram kicks the Chief!

[Riddler Fan]

And Anna Gram kicks the Chief!

Thats one thing I love the most. This Riddler had a henchwoman who literally went down kicking and screaming, unlike so many others who actually apologized for teaming with a Bat-Villain(ess) upon their capture.

[Riddlersgurl]

She also kicked Robin! Which was my favorite scene in the whole episode!

It looked like she connected for real too, considering Burt's reaction; yelling "OW!" Then clutching the injured appendage and jumping up and down on his other foot while she's dragged off.

[Mr. Deathtrap]

Well, Riddler Fan,

It’s great to “converse” with another fan of this set of episodes. Clearly the three riddles you cit and count as riddles are, in fact, riddles:

"When is a man drowned, yet not wet?"

"When is an eagles nest blessed best"

“What walks on four legs at dawn, two legs at noon and three legs in the evening?"

The other clues with which Riddler riddled our heroes being less riddle-like may owe to the crossword puzzle theme interwoven into the episode and using the phrase “Riddle me this” only once probably has more to do with the script than anything else.

Also, some elements of this story are subtle plays on the theme. The No Man Jigssaw Puzzle Company was located through solving the riddle of the sphinx, the third riddle above, and ties into the mythical story of Ulysses and the Cyclops, in which Ulysses fooled the one-eyed monster with, you guessed it, a riddle.

I may be able to help explain Riddler’s use of disguises.

He needed the fireman disguise to infiltrate the banquet without being arrested and to more easily purloin the fire truck for his escape. Imagine a large man in a green, question mark adorned tights driving off in a fire truck. That might, at the very least, be reported to the police.

At the quicksand cake, Batman might have become suspicious, if Riddler had not used his baker’s disguise and at the statue, he used another disguise to hide from Batman, Robin, Commissioner Gordon, and Chief O’Hara. He never would have been able to perpetrate his plan in the tights. Additionally, afterward, he personally put the demoleculerisor in the Commissioner’s office, which likely required another disguise for obvious reasons.

“The one thing that I've always liked is how fiendishly Astin played The Riddler, which was completely different from Gorshin's manic performance.”

Good point, sir. I think it was wise of Astin to do his own interpretation of the character, rather than imitate Gorshin’s. Frank found the character in his maniacal laugh and it seems natural Astin would move in another direction an make his own acting choices.

Finally:

“This Riddler had a henchwoman who literally went down kicking and screaming, unlike so many others who actually apologized for teaming with a Bat-Villain(ess) upon their capture.”

I agree totally. Anna Gram was fantastic. Other molls gave in to Batman’s charm and mystique the way bad girls, except the redhead in “Thunderball” did to James Bond. Not the one in this story though. I’ve used her a couple of times in stories on TwoF’s Batgirl Bat Trap homepage. Also, I’ve met Deana Lund and she is a doll.

So, my friend, for now. Ta ta.

Mr. Deathtrap

[Riddler Fan]

Well, Riddler Fan,

It’s great to “converse” with another fan of this set of episodes. Clearly the three riddles you cit and count as riddles are, in fact, riddles:

"When is a man drowned, yet not wet?"

"When is an eagles nest blessed best"

“What walks on four legs at dawn, two legs at noon and three legs in the evening?"

The other clues with which Riddler riddled our heroes being less riddle-like may owe to the crossword puzzle theme interwoven into the episode and using the phrase “Riddle me this” only once probably has more to do with the script than anything else.

Also, some elements of this story are subtle plays on the theme. The No Man Jigssaw Puzzle Company was located through solving the riddle of the sphinx, the third riddle above, and ties into the mythical story of Ulysses and the Cyclops, in which Ulysses fooled the one-eyed monster with, you guessed it, a riddle.

I may be able to help explain Riddler’s use of disguises.

He needed the fireman disguise to infiltrate the banquet without being arrested and to more easily purloin the fire truck for his escape. Imagine a large man in a green, question mark adorned tights driving off in a fire truck. That might, at the very least, be reported to the police.

At the quicksand cake, Batman might have become suspicious, if Riddler had not used his baker’s disguise and at the statue, he used another disguise to hide from Batman, Robin, Commissioner Gordon, and Chief O’Hara. He never would have been able to perpetrate his plan in the tights. Additionally, afterward, he personally put the demoleculerisor in the Commissioner’s office, which likely required another disguise for obvious reasons.

“The one thing that I've always liked is how fiendishly Astin played The Riddler, which was completely different from Gorshin's manic performance.”

Good point, sir. I think it was wise of Astin to do his own interpretation of the character, rather than imitate Gorshin’s. Frank found the character in his maniacal laugh and it seems natural Astin would move in another direction an make his own acting choices.

Finally:

“This Riddler had a henchwoman who literally went down kicking and screaming, unlike so many others who actually apologized for teaming with a Bat-Villain(ess) upon their capture.”

I agree totally. Anna Gram was fantastic. Other molls gave in to Batman’s charm and mystique the way bad girls, except the redhead in “Thunderball” did to James Bond. Not the one in this story though. I’ve used her a couple of times in stories on TwoF’s Batgirl Bat Trap homepage. Also, I’ve met Deana Lund and she is a doll.

So, my friend, for now. Ta ta.

Mr. Deathtrap

I can appreciate the use of clues as parts of a puzzle, after all Riddler often called himself "The Prince of Puzzlers". But Riddler always leaves clues to his crimes as riddles, as he famously said in Give 'em the axe "Crime is no fun without riddles. That's the main reason I got into this crime business". So to me having Astin's Riddler rely on clues rather than riddles left me a bit bummed.

As for Astin's Riddler's penchant for hiding his question mark covered leotard and tights, I liked how he made his entrance at Batman's party in disguise, then whipping open his fireman's (actually a cheap yellow raincoat) jacket to reveal the imfamous Riddler outfit. I know when I first saw that episode and seeing John "Gomez Addams" Astin wearing Riddler's leotard and tights, I was stunned. But when it came to trapping B&R on top of the quicksand filled cake, I was hoping he'd again remove the disguise and reveal his garish green leotard and tights costume instead of just relying on his eye mask to identify who he was.

Several things that maybe only someone as anal as me noticed made Astin's Riddler slightly different from Gorshin's Riddler...........

The use of the question mark cane.

The lack of the use of wearing the three piece suit.

The use of green dyed loafers on Riddler's feet rather than the usual green dyed ballet slippers.

The use of a black wetsuit with a large green question mark on it.

The use of obvious fire extinguishers as air tanks.

The underwater fight scene shot in slow motion shot through a fish tank.

The lack of a summary of events in the beginning of "A Riddling Controversy".

Riddler's unusual wearing of his eye mask inside his own lair before and during the final fight scene.

And a few other nitpicking items that I won't bore you with. As I've previously said, I didn't really dig the story, I dug the more villainous version of The Riddler. It is such a shame that when Gorshin did return to the role of The Riddler, it was in the pathetic "Ring Around The Riddler".