Best and Worst of the Newbies

[Avenger90]

When I was a kid in the 90s and early noughties watching the TV show in syndication here in the UK on channels such as TCC and FX289, I always lost a slight bit of interest and never really liked the first few arcs of Season 2. During syndication at that time, they tended to show the run in production order, so it went as follows;

Fine Finny Fiends
Batman Makes the Scenes
The Penguin's Nest
The Bird's Last Jest
Hot off the Griddle
The Cat and the Fiddle
Shoot a Crooked Arrow
Walk the Straight and Narrow
The Greatest Mother of them All
Ma Parker
The Spell of Tut
Tut's Case is Shut
The Clock King's Crazy Crimes
The Clock King gets Crowned
The Minstrel's Shakedown
Barbecued Batman

I wasn't keen on the episodes from the Archer through to and including the Minstrel (the King Tut arc not included - I knew of King Tut from watching Season 3 first prior to the full run, so was happy to see him again). I didn't like these unknown villains and the episodes held little interest for me. I remember being happy when, after the Minstrel episodes, the more well known villains that I loved then began reappearing, such as Catwoman, Egghead (I had first seen him in Season 3 so knew who he was), Penguin, Joker, Mr Freeze etc.

As an adult, I still don't have much time for the Archer and Ma Parker episodes (Archer in particular kind of bores me still) but have adapted a sort of fondness for the Clock King and Minstrel arcs.

I always seen this small period as a low point in the series and, to some extent, still do. I would also include the first set of Shame episodes and the Puzzler arc on my list of least favorite's from the first part of season 2, along with Archer and Ma Parker.

During this blast of new unknown adversaries at the beginning of the second season, who do people prefer to watch? Do you enjoy Art Carney's portrayal of Archer more than say Van Johnson as the Minstrel? How do the stories compare?

[BiffPow]

Going to have to agree with you on that assessment.

I guess I would give Van Johnson the nudge over Art Carney. Carney just seemed to be walking through the part for a paycheck. At least Van Johnson had to sing and looked like he enjoyed playing the part a bit more.

[Jim Akin]

As a kid, I kind of liked seeing new villains, but as a grown-up I agree that there was a lot to be desired about some of the baddies introduced in season 2. (Season 1, with False Face, Bookworm and even Zelda was better on that score.) I rank Clock King, Minstrel, Ma Parker and Archer from best-liked to least.

FWIW, I tend to fault the Archer script as much as I do Carney's lackluster performance. The character was weirdly unfocused for something as seemingly straightforward as a Robin Hood spoof. I never understood the tape-recorded applause gimmick, for instance, or why Maid Marilyn drove a truck, or why (aside from an excuse to recycle Batboat footage) he planned to escape on a pirate ship. I won't claim that better writing would have inspired Carney to put Archer in the Archcriminal Hall of Fame, but better material might have helped.

[BiffPow]

I won't claim that better writing would have inspired Carney to put Archer in the Archcriminal Hall of Fame, but better material might have helped.

Valid.

[dell]

My impression of both actors comes from other roles. Van Johnson was a key character in The Caine Mutiny (great movie by the way) and of course Art Carney from the Honeymooners. Mr. Carney was just a goofball in his signature role and in Batman he plays against that type, and it doesn't work well. He comes across as surly and not funny at all as opposed to his Ed Norton character. Van Johnson was known for serious roles (often in war movies), and he seems out of place in Batman.

In the Caine Mutiny Mr. Johnson's character was put in a terrible situation when the Humphrey Bogart character falls apart during a typhoon and Van Johnson has to step in. This is probably his most famous role and is well worth watching. I would call it historical fiction as the typhoon in 1944 was real, but the mutiny was not. Sadly, three U.S. warships were sunk by the intense storm and almost 800 sailors died. Years ago, I read a very good book about this called Halsey's Typhoon. I highly recommend the book for anyone interested in the U.S. Navy or anyone who enjoys a good book. The first third of the book is pre-typhoon, the middle third is the typhoon, and the last third is post-typhoon. Oddly enough the last third of the book is the most riveting.

[AndyFish]

My problems with both Johnson and Carney is that 1- their characters were not very well thought out and 2- they both underplayed and it hurt the "fun" of the guest villain. Starting the second season with the Archer certainly couldn't have been good for business, I know I would have thought twice about sticking with the show. In rewatches I've warmed up to the Minstrel episodes but no such feelings towards the Archer ones.

As for the "original" villains, I've never understood the hatred towards Ma Barker and Shame-- I find both pretty good foils for Batman. Cliff Robertson was laugh out loud funny with his Popeye like mutterings, much like King Tut who is also a favorite of mine.

By Season Two the writing had really fallen off-- so in many ways I'm glad we only got one arc with FalseFace and Bookworm-- two great new villains. I know False Face appeared in the comics, but like The Puzzler I'm not sure he was supposed to be the comic character.

[Chuck Williams]

Interesting that Carney and another comedian, Milton Berle, gave such flat performances.
The Archer episode was also one of the first (that I can think of) that B&R had bits or direction that was supposed to be funny but it just started the decline into silly.

I thought Van Johnson did a great job with a lame character. The story was compelling and not cookie cutter.

Shame and King Tut are the exceptions to the rule that you have to play it straight for it to be funny. Both actors took a step over the line but they made for fun episodes. The whole concept of how thickheaded Shame was great and I quote King Tut all the time now.

[BatToys]

Van Johnson would have been better as Owlman.

[Ben Bentley]

Fun thread! Great to hear everyone's input on this.

For now i'll just say this, I got a really profound pang of sentimentality when I read "FX289" - it looms large in the rekindling of my relationship with the TV series and ultimately lead me to this Message Board, some great friends and adventures aplenty.

[Chuck Williams]

Watched the Archer episode last night and I'm blaming the director for the most part.
Bad staging, music, and lighting choices as well as mumbled dialogue sank this for me.

Hanging on scenes or shots for no reason killed the flow and expressed no danger or excitement.

The lighting and music at the end on the ship was absolutely distracting.
I know it's a kids show but lighting the backdrops as bright and as flat as they were didn't make it more funny to me. Just lazy and "silly".
The music slowed the scene down and sucked the life out of the action.

My two cents...

[Ben Bentley]

Watched the Archer episode last night and I'm blaming the director for the most part.
Bad staging, music, and lighting choices as well as mumbled dialogue sank this for me.

Hanging on scenes or shots for no reason killed the flow and expressed no danger or excitement.

The lighting and music at the end on the ship was absolutely distracting.
I know it's a kids show but lighting the backdrops as bright and as flat as they were didn't make it more funny to me. Just lazy and "silly".
The music slowed the scene down and sucked the life out of the action.

My two cents...

I’m with you on this, but with the added caveat that this arc was not great on the page as written, so with that rocky footing in mind from the jump, every other creative choice made during shooting was already facing an uphill battle.

[robinboyblunderer]

Good things in the Archer episodes:

Adding "eth" with a different font to the fight FX.
The idea of a villain using taped crowd noise.
Alfred using a bow and arrow.
SRR's a funny writer, presumably there's some witty lines in this script but I'm not going back to watch it anytime soon.


Bad things:

Art Carney--either the direction wasn't good or it was his performance or both but he was dull onscreen.

The fake guillotine with Alfred. Not only is it unpleasant to watch the actor put into this predicament, the whole false beheading makes it all pointless. Why even drag Alfred into this scene?

Inherent issues with having a villain with a bow-and-arrow gimmick in a show for children. I'm surprised this was even approved considering the level of work needed for archery.

At the same time, aside from the Alfred/Archer contest, there really isn't much with the actual sport is there? The death trap is jousting, sure it's medieval but shouldn't it be a bow-and-arrow type trap? Horses are expensive too and the end result is a bit dull, let alone the ridiculous Bat-springs escape.

The final battle for some reason is on a boat; doesn't have anything to do with the villain's theme.

Shouldn't the climax involve Batman proving his mastery of bowman-ship over the bad guy? But that sounds like a logistical and expensive nightmare.

SRR using the seemingly average Gotham citizen is secretly part of the gang conceit.

I agree with Chuck Williams regarding the lighting and music factors. While I like watching Batman and Robin duel, it's another step away from bow-and-arrow theme. Now one might say, well...the villain is a twisted parody of Robin Hood and that has sword fighting, which is a fair point but what is Robin Hood primarily known for? Dueling? Jousting? Archery?

Could this have worked as written? I think so, with a different performance from Art Carney, (or different actors) and better production.

Cheers

[BATWINGED HORNET]

Art Carney--either the direction wasn't good or it was his performance or both but he was dull onscreen.

The price of casting someone in a role that's so satirical (in part of Carney's other performances), that there's no feeling of danger to the series leads.

Inherent issues with having a villain with a bow-and-arrow gimmick in a show for children. I'm surprised this was even approved considering the level of work needed for archery.

The series was never strictly for children, and long before the Dozier series, TV series such as The Adventures of Robin Hood (ATV, 1953-59), various cartoons and the well-syndicated 1938 Flynn movie appealed to / were watched by children. Let us not forget the fact number of kids who read comics and watched Batman were very likely familiar with archer characters such as Green Arrow and Hawkeye by the time this episode aired.

[robinboyblunderer]

The series was never strictly for children, and long before the Dozier series, TV series such as The Adventures of Robin Hood (ATV, 1953-59), various cartoons and the well-syndicated 1938 Flynn movie appealed to / were watched by children. Let us not forget the fact number of kids who read comics and watched Batman were very likely familiar with archer characters such as Green Arrow and Hawkeye by the time this episode aired.

I'll clarify.

As I typed that up I considered qualifying I'm aware the show is not just for children, I thought that's implicit. Of course the show was never strictly for children. My focus was on the producers hypothetically thinking there might be a danger involved with a criminal using archery weapons for the potential danger in real life, perhaps with backyard archery set. I didn't bring up adults because they wouldn't be a factor.

Point taken though about children being aware of Robin Hood, Green Arrow et al as a possible reason producers wouldn't have been concerned, in the hypothetical scenario I posted.

Out of all the villains invented for the series, I think King Tut was the most successful, a perfect union of actor and role with each episode working with the criminal's theme.

I like the two movie versions of the Caine Mutiny that I've seen, didn't know Van Johnson had been in one; did a good job with the Minstrel, conveyed a real sense of ego and danger even when some of the episode fell flat.

Cheers.